Labour Talk

Re: this is sick!

jorver — Sat Oct 01, 2005 5:51 pm

Author: jorver

Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 5:51 pm

ash. that says nothing about the bargaining process. They both have to bargain.

I think alot of the ELT realize if this happens...there will be a much smaller ELT.

Re: this is sick!

Ash — Sat Oct 01, 2005 5:36 pm

Author: Ash

Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 5:36 pm

Because doing so would cripple the company's ability to compete, leaving Shaw and Bell to pick the Telus/TWU carcass clean.

PS: If you don't see how that would happen, then there is a reason you are an employee and not part of the ELT.

Re: this is sick!

jorver — Sat Oct 01, 2005 5:33 pm

Author: jorver

Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 5:33 pm

ok iml...that could be turned right around..why couldnt telus do the same with the TWU counter offer.

Re: this is sick!

alec — Fri Sep 30, 2005 3:22 pm

Author: alec

Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 3:22 pm

IML you are soooo right.

the whole problem with bargaining in this dispute has been where to start.

Re: this is sick!

ItsMyLife — Fri Sep 30, 2005 3:05 pm

Author: ItsMyLife

Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 3:05 pm

Jorver wrote:

Quote:

I think this just goes back to whole issue of the union refusing to bargain off the TELUS offer. Bargaining usually works in a certain way......an offer is made, the other party considers it, makes the changes they feel necessary & presents the counter - it then goes back & forth until both parties are satisfied. So why wouldn't the union just take the TELUS offer, rewrite what they don't like & hand it back it to the company?

IMO it's because the union is being completely unrealistic in believing that they should be bargaining off the old BC-TEL/TWU contract - it shows a blatant disregard & disrespect for the company (it's called TELUS Bruce) as well as the members/contracts acquired in the last 5 years. So tell me....how does one bargain with a brick wall?

I personally applaud the company for telling the union to take the BC-TEL contract & shove it!

Re: this is sick!

rick — Fri Sep 30, 2005 12:15 pm

Author: rick

Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 12:15 pm

jorver wrote:

Regarding the TV ads I vaguely remember them. I would like to see them. If I remember correctly they had a point didnt they..Telus puts megabucks into advertizing and not much into staff. That was a point made by Pia Shandel on her radio talk show yesterday. She and alot of the public are sick and tired of paying for large marketing costs ( not just talking about Telus)when it could be put into the customer service.

http://www.twu-canada.ca/cgi-bin/news/fullnews.cgi?newsid1074585600,69365,The TWU used to have them on their website but were ordered to stop the ad campaign and delete it from their website. You won't see any mention of the order to remove it on their site. A significant amount of the Alberta TWU membership was aghast that the TWU would spend money on this obvious slander to their employer. After experiencing the TWU's stupidity firsthand, I'm sure it had a lot to do with helping Alberta folks decide to cross the picket line. The new ads encouraging customers to dump Telus also were part of the reasons many Alberta members ditched the TWU in favour of supporting their employer. Maybe someone knows how to access the restricted info on the TWU site? Are the old TV ads still there somewhere? I still have one of the parrot ads to remind me of the TWU's wasteful, arrogant stupidity.

Re: this is sick!

jorver — Fri Sep 30, 2005 10:37 am

Author: jorver

Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 10:37 am

ItsMyLife wrote:

Thanks LetsVote....I just get so tired of the "it's all their fault" kind of attitude that has been displayed so many times by the union & its supporters.

I have seen many people post comments that it's TELUS who refuses to bargain or have done so in bad faith (ya ya cirb rulings whatever....funny how the ones who are so quick to point that out, never mention the numerous TWU motions/charges that the cirb denied in those same rulings). The thing is, I personally would have a hell of a time bargaining with someone who has gone out of their way to attack me personally instead of dealing with the real issues.....I'm kinda stubborn that way I guess.

Anyone remember those tv ads put out by the TWU almost 2 years ago? What the hell was that all about (the turning point on my opinion of the TWU), not to mention a big fat waste of money......oh & I do believe the cirb or crtc gave them s*** for that - and fined them for it too? I haven't had time to look for anything on that but I seem to remember the whole fiasco cost them in the millions....making a tv commercial isn't cheap! I'd be interested to see any articles, etc. about that if anyone knows where to find them!

As for the union execs, it's time they step up to the plate, take some responsibility for their part in this whole mess & work on resolution instead of the latest smear campaign against the company & DE. Maybe then they would be taken seriously at the bargaining table.

I think most people here on the picketting side would agree that both parties need to bargain. But having said that, the biggest problem is a few sentences that would allow for contracting out..why cant the lawyers for Telus reword them. They say they are not getting rid of jobs...but want that language in there to allow them to. But give us their word they wont. So....why not just change those words to reflect what they mean.

I agree about negetive stuff. In any election if it gets dirty..and the opposing party brings in personal stuff..I usually wont vote for them, it would make me vote for the attacked party..unless of course they both are doing it.However....I think i could care less what they said if i was making his bucks....lol. I would think Darren has big shoulders and would realize most people dont like to hear that kind of stuff and would take it with a grain of salt.

Then ....there are the actual reports of real stuff happening..like Karen R. stating on a radio show calls wouldnt go overseas..then 10 days later doing it.. or Telus Idol. Those are legitimate.... we need to hear that stuff. If the union was doing stuff like that it would be fair game to report it.

Regarding the TV ads I vaguely remember them. I would like to see them. If I remember correctly they had a point didnt they..Telus puts megabucks into advertizing and not much into staff. That was a point made by Pia Shandel on her radio talk show yesterday. She and alot of the public are sick and tired of paying for large marketing costs ( not just talking about Telus)when it could be put into the customer service.

Re: this is sick!

ItsMyLife — Wed Sep 28, 2005 10:29 pm

Author: ItsMyLife

Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 10:29 pm

Thanks LetsVote....I just get so tired of the "it's all their fault" kind of attitude that has been displayed so many times by the union & its supporters.

I have seen many people post comments that it's TELUS who refuses to bargain or have done so in bad faith (ya ya cirb rulings whatever....funny how the ones who are so quick to point that out, never mention the numerous TWU motions/charges that the cirb denied in those same rulings). The thing is, I personally would have a hell of a time bargaining with someone who has gone out of their way to attack me personally instead of dealing with the real issues.....I'm kinda stubborn that way I guess.

Anyone remember those tv ads put out by the TWU almost 2 years ago? What the hell was that all about (the turning point on my opinion of the TWU), not to mention a big fat waste of money......oh & I do believe the cirb or crtc gave them shit for that - and fined them for it too? I haven't had time to look for anything on that but I seem to remember the whole fiasco cost them in the millions....making a tv commercial isn't cheap! I'd be interested to see any articles, etc. about that if anyone knows where to find them!

As for the union execs, it's time they step up to the plate, take some responsibility for their part in this whole mess & work on resolution instead of the latest smear campaign against the company & DE. Maybe then they would be taken seriously at the bargaining table.

Re: this is sick!

misscalgary — Wed Sep 28, 2005 3:36 pm

Author: misscalgary

Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 3:36 pm

ItsMyLife wrote:

DE has to answer to the BOD & shareholders....he's gone if he screws up, but what about Bruce? When will he answer to the people he is supposed to represent?

He won't.

I think he might like working for Shaw better than TELUS ...

Re: this is sick!

Stuartgg — Tue Sep 27, 2005 2:29 pm

Author: Stuartgg

Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 2:29 pm

ItsMyLife wrote:

I agree this whole situation is more than sad & unfortunately the actions of some have gone beyond what is considered respectful, reasonable and even rational behavior.

We all know that there are parties on both sides of this dispute that are equally guilty of this behavior - behavior that more than likely does not accurately reflect the views or positions of the majority of the people involved.

The feelings of hatred, anger & bitterness have been cultivated & carried by some long before this work stoppage began - and though there are many reasons behind it all that we could debate on forever, I personally can't help but look to those who seemed to have planted the seeds & carefully helped nurture these feelings for the last 5 years. I look to those who are quick to blame the company for their failures & poor decision-making instead of accepting responsibility for their own part in all of this. I look to those who twist facts & present untruths with only their personal agendas in mind. I look to those who use every opportunity to manipulate information & events to cultivate fear and uncertainty in those they supposedly represent.....

That being said, IMHO the TWU chose this path for their members without putting much thought or consideration in regards to the possible consequences of their actions. The company for one has never (to my knowledge anyways) promoted the downfall of the union in any way, shape, or form (and yes I already know you conspiracy theorists emphatically disagree so don't waste your breath on letting me know)......I cannot say the same for the TWU - it seems to me that "TELUS busting" is openly encouraged by the union & has been going on for years. Who pays for this of course? We do - no TELUS, no jobs end of story.

Make your own choices & accept the responsibility of those choices. Agree to disagree & treat those around you with respect - whether you think they deserve it or not.

A really EXCELLENT Post!

Re: this is sick!

goatdancer — Tue Sep 27, 2005 1:27 pm

Author: goatdancer

Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 1:27 pm

scab

Your comment "jealous?" really speaks highly of you. That is the most ignorant and callous comment you have here. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Re: this is sick!

Wwood — Sun Sep 25, 2005 9:53 am

Author: Wwood

Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2005 9:53 am

mirrormirror wrote:

john doe....
imho...your statements are exactly what is fueling this dispute...no matter what the other side sez you have a pat answer for trying to turn it around like a spin doctor rather than thinking about the virtues of the message...i dont think that approach will lead to any solution...

a different leadership stlye is now need to resolve this dispute...people like you are so entrenched on both sides of the picket line....no reslove is possible...the ceo has taken the company in a direction that has no end in sight....only more division and bitterness...

and you i bet can honestly see the ceo coming out of this untarnished?

and you can honestly look yourself in the eye and say" i will be able with no problem at all to work side by side with my fellow workers out on the picket line"...

your in denial if you can....aint gonna happen...the longer this dispute is allowed to continue the worse its gonna get pal...

trust me...been there seen that...

Quote:

trust me...been there seen that...

[/quote]

That was then, this is now. When will aome people realize we are now in 2005 and not in 1980 anymore. Union leadership has not kept up with the times and some members also live in the past. Many however have made the realization that they have more in common with the Telus leadership and values than the union's.
That's the biggest difference. For those with a bone to pick, if and when they come back. They had better get over it or they will not last long.

Re: this is sick!

JohnDoe — Sun Sep 25, 2005 9:50 am

Author: JohnDoe

Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2005 9:50 am

mirrormirror wrote:

IMHO, you are doing the exact same thing for the union. The fact is both sides have strong opinions. You cannot blame the CEO for everything that has gone wrong. Therefore I am pointing out that for every wrong you see the CEO doing, Bruce Bell has also done a wrong. It is not as lopsided against the CEO as you would have us believe.

mirrormirror wrote:

a different leadership stlye is now need to resolve this dispute...people like you are so entrenched on both sides of the picket line....no reslove is possible...the ceo has taken the company in a direction that has no end in sight....only more division and bitterness...

You are correct, a different leadership style is needed. However, it is needed in the union's ranks. If Bruce Bell will not step down then a change of unions is in order. Mr Bell needs to realize that he is doing nothing but tearing this union apart. He also needs to recognize that he and his union is secondary. The union, most likely, won't survive much longer without the Telus employees. The company, however, will continue to prosper. With or without it.

mirrormirror wrote:

and you i bet can honestly see the ceo coming out of this untarnished?

No, however, the public will get over it and forget about it. They always do. If Darren so chooses to get another position in another company, that is his decision. He will prosper at that and make the correct decisions for that company also. Yes, he has done wrong, so have you, so has every single person you know. Difference? He is the head of a very successful company. People don't like it when people are successful. They remind them of their own inadequacies.

mirrormirror wrote:

and you can honestly look yourself in the eye and say" i will be able with no problem at all to work side by side with my fellow workers out on the picket line"...

Truthfully? No. Though it will be no fault of my own. I, as I've stated before, respect people for their own choices. As long as they conduct themselves as adults, then there is no quarrel. I will treat them with the respect they deserve until such time as they decide to abuse that respect. If harrassment has occurred, as it has in the past, actions will be documented, witnesses gathered, and they can explain themselves to the BC Human Rights Tribunal. Grievences are pointless now as I'm no longer a "member in good standing". Therefore, harrassment in the workplace will be treated as such.

mirrormirror wrote:

your in denial if you can....aint gonna happen...the longer this dispute is allowed to continue the worse its gonna get pal...

I haven't denied anything. I agree. However, since they are out fighting for "job security", I hope they don't lose their jobs when they come back over something as petty as working with someone who also made their own choice.

mirrormirror wrote:

trust me...been there seen that...

I feel sorry for you.

Re: this is sick!

care — Sun Sep 25, 2005 9:48 am

Author: care

Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2005 9:48 am

I aggree

Re: this is sick!

Ash — Sun Sep 25, 2005 9:45 am

Author: Ash

Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2005 9:45 am

I agree Mirror, a change in the union leadership is greatly needed. Someone younger, more in touch with todays industry and economy. Someone who has a future with the company, and is not preparing for retirement. Give Bruce our best when you break the news to him, won't you.

Re: this is sick!

mirrormirror — Sun Sep 25, 2005 8:53 am

Author: mirrormirror

Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2005 8:53 am

john doe....
imho...your statements are exactly what is fueling this dispute...no matter what the other side sez you have a pat answer for trying to turn it around like a spin doctor rather than thinking about the virtues of the message...i dont think that approach will lead to any solution...

a different leadership stlye is now need to resolve this dispute...people like you are so entrenched on both sides of the picket line....no reslove is possible...the ceo has taken the company in a direction that has no end in sight....only more division and bitterness...

and you i bet can honestly see the ceo coming out of this untarnished?

and you can honestly look yourself in the eye and say" i will be able with no problem at all to work side by side with my fellow workers out on the picket line"...

your in denial if you can....aint gonna happen...the longer this dispute is allowed to continue the worse its gonna get pal...

trust me...been there seen that...

Re: this is sick!

JustMe — Sun Sep 25, 2005 1:50 am

Author: JustMe

Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2005 1:50 am

!(a.scab) wrote:

JustMe wrote:

In this day and age it disgusts me to know that women still do stuff like that to move up the corporate ladder. And that it actually works! Well, temporarily, until something better (or blonder)comes along.

Jealous?

Jealous of what? A woman (or man) that will get on her (his) knees to move up the corporate ladder?

Re: this is sick!

JohnDoe — Sat Sep 24, 2005 10:38 pm

Author: JohnDoe

Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2005 10:38 pm

mirrormirror wrote:

this dispute is about people...the employees...the ceo is fixed financially for life regardless of the outcome...most employees are not...most employees need to work for quite few years..

This is not the CEO's fault, as it were. It was his choice to become a CEO and to spend his money in a way which got him to the "financially free" point. Likewise, like it or not, it was the employee's decisions which brought them to the point of not "financially free". 95% of the people out there are sharing a whopping 5% of the money available. In reverse, the other 5% of the people control the other 95% of the money available. Why is that? The decisions that they have made. Don't bring this whole "financially free" argument into this. This has nothing to do with the dispute at hand. If you wish to be financially free, then get yourself into a position where you can have your own business. Stop looking for opportunities and look for trends.

mirrormirror wrote:

anyone who has an inkling of leadership training should know that when you go against the masses serious problems are the result...they should also know that the best way to accomplish a company goal is to provide a leadership style that is respected by the workforce...and to build trust by supporting and encouraging the workforce to make the necessary adjustments to make the company more productive...

I can't say I agree with this whole statement. The first sentance is obviously true. Go against the flow and you will get turbulance. However, the whole idea of bringing in a new leader is to bring in new ideas and, yes, new leadership styles. It is not the responsibility of, essentially the owner, the CEO to change his leadership style. That's like telling me, the owner of my car, I can't paint it yellow because it doesn't fit the style of colours in traffic. No, it's your responsibility to get used to the leadership style and deal with it. Essentially, FIFO is correct, albeit a little harsh. You want a new leadership style, get your own car.

mirrormirror wrote:

the current ceo tried to move a mountain with a leadership style that was not matched to the nature of the workforce..he failed..he then tried to move the mountain with a show of force...he is failing again...

Again, see last remark. I'd like to add though that there has been no "show of force". Giving the option to think for yourself and make your own decision is hardly forceful.

mirrormirror wrote:

in observing this dispute for a number of years it is my opinion that the Union Leadership has failed to provide the leadership style need to achieve success with this company...to bring about the changes needed to permit to be competitive...

See how easy that change was? Now it makes more sense then ever. The union must change to fit the company. The company came before the union. Not the other way around.

mirrormirror wrote:

this is not like watching a hockey game and rooting for various teams...this is about employees, their families and their lives...

Unfortunately, it is not their right as humans to have a job. The company sets a direction and the employees are expected to fall into place. Again, if you want to set that direction, get your own company.

mirrormirror wrote:

i challenge any readers to show me how dividing the troops and allowing strong opposing views and emotions to become entrenched will benefit the workforce...and make the company more competitive...

It won't. However, here you are again suggesting a show of force to not allow employees to have "strong opposing views". Unfortunately, "strong opposing views" are a side effect of society. Nobody feels exactly the same about everything. Many are right-wing, and equally many are left-wing. So be it. It is up to the union however to quit pitting the employees against the company to achieve their own point of view. In this case the union must FIFO, not the company.

Re: this is sick!

mirrormirror — Sat Sep 24, 2005 9:16 pm

Author: mirrormirror

Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2005 9:16 pm

i have been being the devil's advocate on this topic...look at the resonses my topic has generated...

dont tell me there are not strong points of view and feelings here...just read the posts again if you are having trouble seeing thru the trees...

this dispute is no longer about a contract...it is no longer about which leader did what first...it is not about who is doing what for what reason...

this dispute is now about employees who used to work shoulder to shoulder forming strong and emotional opposing views...this dispute is about two sides...one in...the smaller one and one out...the larger one...

this dispute is about people...the employees...the ceo is fixed financially for life regardless of the outcome...most employees are not...most employees need to work for quite few years..

anyone who has an inkling of leadership training should know that when you go against the masses serious problems are the result...they should also know that the best way to accomplish a company goal is to provide a leadership style that is respected by the workforce...and to build trust by supporting and encouraging the workforce to make the necessary adjustments to make the company more productive...

the current ceo tried to move a mountain with a leadership style that was not matched to the nature of the workforce..he failed..he then tried to move the mountain with a show of force...he is failing again...

in observing this dispute for a number of years it is my opinion that the ceo has failed to provide the leadership style need to achieve success with this company...to bring about the changes needed to permit to be competitive...

no as i have stated before i am not an employee but an outsider who has taken the time to research both sides of this dispute...combined with my experience in both management and workforce positions it is my honest opinion that this dispute is sick and is rapidly accelerating to the downfall of honest and hard working folk...the employees...

in taking the devil's advocate on this topic i think i have adequately shown that now matter what i say ..it is seen as coming from the enemy's camp and the responses have been as opposing as my statements...i would guess the conviction behind the replies are strongly felt...

and that simply is what is making this dispute sicker by the day...opposing views with strong conviction...i am guessing at one time you used to work should to shoulder....i can only see from my experience that it is going to take a long time after this is over to make the shoulder to shoulder feel comfortable ....and the longer this dispute continues...the strong the feelings...etc...etc...etc

this is not like watching a hockey game and rooting for various teams...this is about employees, their families and their lives...

i challenge any readers to show me how dividing the troops and allowing strong opposing views and emotions to become entrenched will benefit the workforce...and make the company more competitive...

Re: this is sick!

jorver — Sat Sep 24, 2005 6:49 pm

Author: jorver

Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2005 6:49 pm

what about what that Michael Levy said about other exec.'s in Telus not liking the way this was going.
I am not sure he is not screwing up..time will tell and I dont think we will ever get the full story.
whatever happens here i feel a future employer would look at the whole picture not just the past year or so. He has good prospectives. If he is trying to break the union...well he is making a good attempt. That would have to count for something on his resume.